GameFAQs Contests

Zelda's always been pretty good with LFF too though. I could see it being about equal just because they're both good at it.

Lopen posted...

Zelda's always been pretty good with LFF too though. I could see it being about equal just because they're both good at it.

Eh, not really. She held up well against Samus in the female bracket final, but nobody really trusts that result. Samus put some SFF on her when they met again in 2010. Zelda hasn't been put into a lot of SFF/LFF situations in general though.

Yeah true it's not super decisive. I'm not really arguing against fraudizard (as said my lowballing of Terra was largely seething Terra hatred combined with a lack of super detailed research on most of these picks) I'm just saying I can see where people might be coming from. You can credibly make the argument that Zelda should hold as well as an average Pokemon.

Well, it's either ZELDADRONES and she holds up like a champ as a result (same for POKEDRONES) or it's just that she's a leech much like Ganondorf and suffers in LFF/SFF because of it. Ganondorf has lost matches he shouldn't or looked worse than he normally would because of SFF and LFF.

I think Zelda has a lot more individual appeal than Ganondorf tbh, who is mostly driven by series votes. I'd actually kinda want to see Zelda vs Ganondorf because I think she'd obliterate him 1v1 and it would be hilarious to see.

Yeah, I've always kind of wanted to see Bowser and Zelda against Ganondorf 1-on-1 because he's looked stronger than them indirectly, but I also think they both could beat him anyway.

Round 1 – Estelle Bright vs. Isaac

Moltar’s Analysis

I keep thinking this is Vesperia Estelle.

I mean the result would be the same anyway, as Isaac isn’t going to lose to any Estelle. It’s another case of weak contest veteran vs unknown contest newcomer, and in each one so far, the veteran has shown that they make these contests for a reason. They’re older characters that have small, dedicated fanbases. That’s enough to beat someone newer that’s still needs more time to get people behind them, but not enough to do anything more than that.

Moltar’s Bracket: Isaac

Moltar’s Prediction: Isaac – 67%

transience’s Analysis

Trails in the Sky is the newer and trendier game, but Golden Sun is that dangerous early-gen RPG on a Nintendo platform that everyone played. It's not unlike the Tales of Symphonias or Xenoblades of the world. It's just the right age. Isaac has always weirdly impressed in these things and I trust someone halfway decent to a newer character on niche platforms (for this website).

I can't tell if I'm overrating or underrating Estelle here, but I'm sure I'm way off in some direction.

transience's prediction: Isaac with 63.26%

Leonhart’s Analysis

Isaac is that character who is stronger than you think he is and somehow keeps showing up in these things despite not having anything relevant in ages. People have suggested making him the new fodder line, but like its former namesake Vyse, you’d have to think Isaac would have to drop off a cliff at SOME point. Can being an Assist Trophy really keep Isaac perpetually relevant? So far, it seems that the answer is yes!

It’s nice to see Estelle get in a contest, but it would’ve taken a lot of luck for her to get a winnable match. Trails fans are pretty dedicated (sometimes to an annoying degree here on the board, and I say this as a Trails fan), but I don’t think there are enough of them here to keep her from getting blown out. I also think her picture is kinda bad here. If Bacon is going to use closeup profile pics regardless, he should’ve just used Estelle’s profile pic from the game itself. Not that it would matter TOO much, but I’d like her to have the situation that enables her to perform the best she can!

Leonhart’s Vote: Estelle Bright

Leonhart’s Prediction: Isaac with 67.21%

Kleenex’s Analysis

You know, I don’t even like Trails in the Sky all that much, but I still think Estelle’s great. It’s great that she made it into a contest. It’s not so great that she’s going to get crushed. Isaac is surprisingly resilient despite not having a game come out for almost a decade (and not having a good game come out in almost two). GameFAQs still has a weird attachment for Golden Sun, and Trails, for better or worse, it still an incredibly niche series, even on this site. Still, I’ll be voting against Isaac today in hopes that maybe - just maybe - we can @SaveEstelle.

Kleenex’s Prediction: Issac with 66%

Guest’s Analysis - garetha200

Boring, predictable. Less niche JRPG character who has appeared on Nintendo systems beats more niche JRPG character who has not. Isaac is also an assist trophy in Smash, so it's even more obvious.

So, I'm going to use this spot to tell everyone to play Trails. Trails, a subseries of The Legend of Heroes (which is technically also a subseries, it's really confusing), is in my opinion the most consistent JRPG series ever, maybe with the exception of the Xenosaga games. It has an excellent world which you gradually explore bit by bit, and it just becomes more and more incredible as you play more games in the series, and on top of that it has a very nice combat system with a good level of customization. Each game also tells a great story, with my one minor gripe being that the first game, Trails in the Sky FC, starts off way too slowly. But best of all are the characters, each Trails game has tons of characters but they all feel very real. The Trails of Cold Steel games in my opinion has a better overall cast, but Estelle in Trails in the Sky is an incredible character and is a big reason of why the games are so fun to play. So play the games! You can start with either Sky or Cold Steel, just don't play the currently-unreleased-in-the-west Cold Steel 3 without playing Sky

Unfortunately Isaac appeared in a Smash Bros. game, so yeah sorry Estelle hope you enjoy your one match

Isaac with 65%

Crew Consensus: Isaac outlevels his opponent

I like Xenosaga a lot but consistent is definitely not a word I would use to describe it!

also it bugs me that so many people think Isaac is popular because of being an assist trophy in Smash like that's even 10% of his popularity

Master Moltar posted...

the most consistent JRPG series ever, maybe with the exception of the Xenosaga games.

what the heck am I reading here

yeah, isaac is only popular because his game was the only jrpg on the gba for like a year so everybody tricked themselves into thinking it was good

Round 1 – Kirby vs. Guile

Moltar’s Analysis

Guile seems low on the SF totem pole at GameFAQs. He routinely loses to Chun in favorites polls, and she only got 56% on Spyro. Kirby is no Spyro.

I’ve got Kirby going far so I’m hoping he can look good here, but blowouts haven’t really been Kirby’s thing. He usually does face decent opponents early on though, and I don’t see Guile being decent.

Moltar’s Bracket: Kirby

Moltar’s Prediction: Kirby – 72%

transience’s Analysis

Argh. Why did Guile get Kirby? He could have been the second best character in this eightpack. Oh well.

It might just be me, but Kirby always surprises me in every contest. There's a valid argument for Kirby winning this division. Guile is probably.. around Chun Li? Maybe slightly below? He's probably not natively as strong but he also has the weird memes that keep him a little more relevant than your average SF2 guy. He's not really anyone's favourite but he'd beat the Blankas and Zangiefs of the world pretty easily. Hopefully he doesn't get killed here.

transience's prediction: Kirby with 65.22%

Leonhart’s Analysis

Speaking of pictures (probably not a great segue considering this is probably getting posted a while after the previous match), Guile’s got a great pic here. It’s not often I’d give a character a picture advantage against Kirby, but it’s close! I’m a huge Street Fighter fan, and I’m kind of surprised Board 8 gravitated toward getting Guile in with the NRT. I mean, I’m sure he’ll do fine here, but he’s not going to be any better than any of the other SF characters we’ve seen before. If we really needed to get another Street Fighter character in these things (and we probably didn’t!), I’d have gone with Cammy. I think she’s got more potential than Guile.

I say all that because there’s really nothing to discuss here. Pikachu doubled Scorpion, so anything less than that here would either mean Guile’s a lot stronger than I’m giving him credit for or Pokemania’s gonna run wild on you, brother!

Leonhart’s Vote: Kirby

Leonhart’s Prediction: Kirby with 71.25%

Kleenex’s Analysis

Kirby with Guile powers would be pretty cool.

Not much else to say about this one! Not sure why Guile’s even here, but whatever! Chun Li held up okay, so maybe Guile won’t get completely bodied, but I doubt it. Hiiiii~

Kleenex’s Prediction: Kirby with 72%

Guest’s Analysis - NowItsAngeTime

I was actually rooting for Guile to be a new nomination for the contest before realizing he won the NRT.

Rather unfortunate that he's in a super unwinnable match vs Kirby and based on Chun-Li's performance against Spyro (which I figure he'd be like 75% of Chun's strength) that's not lookin good for him overall though he might be able to do super well against a bunch of these fodder R1 matches.

And unfortunately this forced voting for all 4 matches means people may not recognize SF5 Guile much (I like SF5 Guile a lot and his theme myself) so he may do even worse with the match pic he has.

If this were a winnable match for Guile, I'd be spamming his theme that goes with everything on high volume.

But in any case each match for Kirby:

Kirby 72%
Guile 28%

Crew Consensus: Kirby learned Flash Kick!

Literally three 72% predictions

I'll take my chances with this spread. yeesh

Leon, Cammy would not do as well as any of the original 8. well, maybe Honda.

Eh, I think she could. Akuma looks to be as strong as Ken, Chunners, and Bison, and he came even after she did. I think most SF2 characters who aren't Ryu would do about the same regardless. I just think Cammy has a chance of being interesting while we know what we're getting out of Guile.

yeah Akuma is an outlier though. Guile over Cammy any day.

Maybe. I think Cammy could be an outlier, too, though. Anyone else other than them outside of the original SF2 cast would be trash though.

Lopen's analysisx4

Phoenix Wright v Chris Redfield

I definitely agree with the idea that Phoenix Wright actually looks like a legitimate low-midcarder now. Meanwhile Chris Redfield at his peak probably didn't pass the Pac-Man test, and he like Gordon Freeman probably has nowhere to go but down with Resident Evil feeling like it hasn't been relevant in a while and him largely suffering from the same character design issues that Gordon does.

Phoenix Wright with 65.19%

Ike v Joel

Ike has never seemed strong on this site. I've always expected him to be a bit stronger. Maybe Fire Emblem Heroes helps him but I feel like that game's on the decline too. That being said I think Joel's pic is going to really hurt him, and while Last of Us got some decent reception it's not a very GameFAQs type game all things considered.

Ike with 65.19%

Estelle Bright v Isaac

Cute girl from a new RPG series that seems to be gaining a lot of following. I actually took this upset in my bracket (crazy, I know!), but with Kiryu not being able to beat Bomberman, and making that pick with the same kinda idea as this one, I think it's unlikely she can convert here. I do expect her to make this closer than most are expecting, however. Golden Sun is long dead and Isaac wasn't ever strong to begin with.

Isaac with 55.08%

Kirby v Guile

Kirby's really seemed strong the past few times we've seen him, and I feel like the characters that have showed signs of getting stronger the past few contests have only seemed to continue that trend. So Kirby should probably be pretty legit here. Combine that with Street Fighter 5's botched reception and Chun Li (and Scorpion) being underwhelming, I expect a slaughter on this one.

Kirby with 74.09%

there’s nothing like a Phoenix board vote

Keltiq posted...

yeah, isaac is only popular because his game was the only jrpg on the gba for like a year so everybody tricked themselves into thinking it was good

That's...maybe not wrong? The game in which Isaac is the main protagonist is, in fact, somewhere between 33% and 40% of a good JRPG. Then we had to wait a couple of years to get the remaining 60-67% of the game, where Isaac and his crew are absent for 3/4 of the game before returning late.

That's not a joke; they basically took one solid game and split it up into two pieces.

Then there was a sequel that starred the children of Isaac's party. It was... honestly I didn't think it was that great at the time, but there was a subtle genius to it. Spoilers ahead.

While the biggest problem I had with Dark Dawn was that there were too many points of no return, something the first two games pretty much completely lacked unless you count the fact that once the two parties meet up in the second game, you lose your chance to transfer clear data from the first game if you failed to do so at the start of the file, another problem I had with it was that the level curve felt totally wonky. You get to a point that I estimate is maybe 2/3 of the way through the game at most, and suddenly every random encounter within a fairly large portion of the map is basically a miniboss. You find yourself dreading having to sail back into the Grave Eclipse. But looking back at it, that's the brilliance of it. You're hopelessly out of your league, and trying to come up with some way to deal with the impending apocalypse. The huge difficulty spike delivers the proper sense of foreboding.

Of course, the other major problem I had with the game is that the final boss and postgame bonus bosses, including the one that was the absolute bane of anyone who played Lost Age, were almost trivial, because once you get to the "99.9% mark", as it were--a cutscene that's such a short walk away from the final boss that you might not get stopped for a random battle at all on the way, and certainly not more than once if you're not intentionally dawdling--the area gets flooded with enemies that are total pushovers and give you ridiculously large amounts of experience and a guaranteed Water of Life drop. You can just farm that last stretch of the game for 15-30 minutes and you'll easily be overleveled for just about anything.

golden sun sucks

ike vs phoenix is gonna be pretty wild based on these trends. that’s a real hard one to predict, I think.

Leonhart4 posted...

Maybe. I think Cammy could be an outlier, too, though. Anyone else other than them outside of the original SF2 cast would be trash though.

Agreed, if only because being a hot chick still gives you a leg up over not being a hot chick.

That's actually why I took the Estelle > Isaac upset in my bracket; I figured that Isaac was in that "niche RPG" ghetto where being DAT TOP OPTION and A GRILL would be enough for Estelle to win. I'm happy that the board consensus is that Isaac is stronger than that!

boring day

Chris vs Joel who ya got

I'd take Chris any day over untested modern western characters that also have generic names and unappealing designs.

KommunistKoala posted...

Chris vs Joel who ya got

Chris with like 57%

Cammy would be doing better than this

nah, I don't think so. I'm not super surprised that Kirby is killing Guile.

I do wonder if Shepard/Ryu should be a conversation though

As in, you think Shepard can win?

I feel like Ryu will hold up fine compared to these other fighting game characters because of his iconic status (and Smash doesn't hurt either).

I might be more inclined to consider a Shepard upset if Andromeda hadn't bombed so badly. It's possible it won't hurt him since he's not in it, but it sure won't help.

Yeah, I’m not sure if mass effect evokes the same warm fuzzy feelings it did 5 years ago. We’ll see how Garrus does.

Hopefully the Grinch leak is true so Isaac takes a hell of a lot longer to fall off a cliff

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7262

2B wrecks some dude.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7263

Ness is indeed slightly stronger than Shadow.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7264

Charizard surprisingly has a tough time with Terra.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7265

Bowser destroys Freeman pretty badly.

Crew Predictions: 25/28

Next Round Thoughts: Both these R2 matches are debatable. 2B won big against a no-name opponent, but does that put her at the level of Ness/Shadow? Charizard might have barely made it to R2, but that could just mean Terra is stronger than we thought. Gordon could also be much weaker this year due to irrelevance, which makes Bowser's win less impressive. Lots to say next round.

Crew Prediction Challenge:

transience: 28
Moltar: 24
Leonhart: 23
Guest: 23
Kleenex: 23

Crew Accuracy Challenge: Moltar gets the point for 2B, Moltar gets the point for Ness, Leon gets the point for Charizard, and SuperNiceDog gets the point for Bowser

transience: 10
Guest: 7 (BetrayedTangy, SuperNiceDog (2), pjbasis, garetha200, ZenOfThunder, Ranticoot)
Moltar: 5
Leonhart: 4
Kleenex: 2

Master Moltar posted...

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7262

2B wrecks some dude.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7263

Ness is indeed slightly stronger than Shadow.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7264

Charizard surprisingly has a tough time with Terra.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7265

Bowser destroys Freeman pretty badly.

Crew Predictions: 25/28

Next Round Thoughts: Both these R2 matches are debatable. 2B won big against a no-name opponent, but does that put her at the level of Ness/Shadow? Charizard might have barely made it to R2, but that could just mean Terra is stronger than we thought. Gordon could also be much weaker this year due to irrelevance, which makes Bowser's win less impressive. Lots to say next round.

Crew Prediction Challenge:

transience: 28
Moltar: 24
Leonhart: 23
Guest: 23
Kleenex: 23

Crew Accuracy Challenge: Moltar gets the point for 2B, Moltar gets the point for Ness, Leon gets the point for Charizard, and SuperNiceDog gets the point for Bowser

transience: 10
Guest: 7 (BetrayedTangy, SuperNiceDog (2), pjbasis, garetha200, ZenOfThunder, Ranticoot)
Moltar: 5
Leonhart: 4
Kleenex: 2

wooooo!

you don't have to quote a gigantic post in the very next post just to respond with one word

I'd pick Cammy over Guile in my bracket.

LeonhartFour posted...

you don't have to quote a gigantic post in the very next post just to respond with one word

sure!

I just wanted to say this has been a really enjoyable topic to read. Thanks to the crew and their guests for putting so much time into this.

Round 1 – Squall Leonhart vs. Hat Kid

Moltar’s Analysis

Hat Kid has a nice hat.

That’s all I’ve got to say here. Squall is a near-elite and no kid with a hat is beating him.

…

unless that kid is young link

Moltar’s Bracket: Squall

Moltar’s Prediction: Squall – 78%

transience’s Analysis

The first round is half over and I'm somehow still perfect (at least in the Crew). This is definitely the best I've done to start out a contest, but it won't last -- because everything from here on is totally up for grabs. Lots of super dumb matches ahead.

Not this one, though. This is a more traditional 1/16 romp. Hat Kid might get more from being called 'Hat Kid' than from A Hat in Time. Actually, Hat in Time might be third on the depth chart. It goes 'Hat Kid' > Squall is an idiot > Hat in Time. Squall romps here, but probably can't clean up like he should. At least he looks good going into round 2. If he goes under 75%, something's wrong.

transience's prediction: Squall with 79.95%

Leonhart’s Analysis

People have been calling for Zelda > Squall since day two of the contest after a bunch of midtier Final Fantasy protagonists (who have never been in his league) have flopped. Now it’s time for Squall to put up the blowout of the contest to establish himself as the strongest Final Fantasy character.

(That is a pretty dapper hat though)

Leonhart’s Vote: Squall Leonhart

Leonhart’s Prediction: Squall Leonhart with 88.88%

Kleenex’s Analysis

Trying to write a bunch of these before I leave for a weekend without access to a PC, so I’m going to keep the blowout matches shorter than usual.

This is one of them. I’d be shocked if most people even knew who Hat Kid was, and Squall is in the running for being a top 10 character in terms of strength. This is a good chance for him to prove it.

Kleenex’s Prediction: Squall with 82%

Crew Consensus: No hat zone

No guest write-up? That's lame.

Give me an hour and I'll make it if it isn't there. Can't miss a chance to talk about our lord and savior Hat Kid.

Squall is not only he's the strongest FF character but he's actually the strongest character outside the N9, but 88.88 is really pushing it lol

Round 1 – Garrus Vakarian vs. Ramza Beoulve

Moltar’s Analysis

Ramza’s fallen pretty hard since 2003. Garrus was one and done in 2013, but at least he went out with a respectable performance against Sub-Zero, who we know is decent. Ramza got wrecked by Squirtle, and 2018 hasn’t been too kind to old Square characters that aren’t from FF6 so far.

Don’t get me wrong though, Mass Effect overall is going to be weaker now that the series is kind of pretty much dead. Still, even though Garrus is weaker now, I don’t expect him to have fallen as much as Ramza.

Moltar’s Bracket: Garrus

Moltar’s Prediction: Garrus – 57%

transience’s Analysis

Here's a take: Mass Effect is going to suck this year. No series has been driven into the ground quite like Mass Effect. I don't think Garrus, or even Shepard, can keep the stink off. Someone might think that seeing these classic, good ME characters will remind them of the good times, but nope. There's no coming back from what happened to Mass Effect.

Ramza sucks, of course. I think he's better than losing to Hogger, and Aya Brea managed to at least look okay in her match against some old man. This audience will certainly know who he is, and he's way better than Aya. Good enough to win? Hey, I'm not crazy. I have a 30 match streak to uphold.

transience's prediction: Garrus with 54.44%

Leonhart’s Analysis

Poor Ramza, doomed to never win a contest match. He’s probably my favorite character who’s been in these contests who’s never won a match before. His best hope here is that people just don’t care about Mass Effect anymore, which is certainly possible after all the backlash that Andromeda received put the series into cold storage for the foreseeable future. I kinda think people won’t hold that against Garrus (or Shepard) because they weren’t involved in Andromeda at all. They might even get some nostalgia for the days when the series was still great (Just like old times). I’ll be happy with whoever wins though because I really like them both and neither has won before.

And if Ramza loses big, I’m sure people will be talking about how this result guarantees Zelda > Squall even as Squall dominates his own match on the same day…!

Leonhart’s Vote: Ramza Beoulve

Leonhart’s Prediction: Garrus Vakarian with 58.71%

Kleenex’s Analysis

I’ll never be able to spell Ramza’s last name without looking it up. I think a few years ago, Garrus is a slam dunk to win this match. Mass Effect in 2018 doesn’t have the same cache that Mass Effect did back in 2013, where I thought Garrus did fairly well for a round 1 loss. Ramza hs never achieved much of anything, and that probably continues, but this match should end up being pretty close. Final Fantasy is all over the place this contest. I’m not sure which end of the spectrum Ramza will fall, but I like Garrus better so I’m picking him.

Kleenex’s Prediction: Garrus with 53%

Guest’s Analysis - SuperNiceDog



I am very confident that Ramza will win this match. People just stopped caring about the Mass Effect series on this site. I know it did really well in the Game of the Decade contest(2010), but that was 8 years ago. If you have not played the Mass Effect series, then you will likely not know who Garrus is.

Yes Ramza looks like a girl in his R1 picture, and old Square(pre-FFX) has been looking bad this contest, but I think Ramza has just enough to get him by this match.

He looks very anime, angelic actually, and I think that will help him a lot.



Garrus also just looks terrible in his match pic, like a generic space alien:



I just know you're not gonna vote for him. In a match this debated, the picture is often what makes the difference.

Final Fantasy Tactics also I think has a ton of respect on this site still. It’s very closely associated with FF7, since it came out near the same time period.

Garrus’ only hope, to me, is a rally. The Mass Effect reddit is actually quite large(150k subs), with 500 online, and that could be enough to make the difference. However...

Since there hasn’t been any rallies yet and the Mass Effect series peaked in 2010-2012(ish), Ramza will win.

Ramza wins with 53% of the vote

Odds of Ramza winning: 70%

Crew Consensus: Garrus re-calibrates Ramza

wow we're all pretty low here. I thought people would be up near 60.

spooky96 posted...

Squall is not only he's the strongest FF character but he's actually the strongest character outside the N9, but 88.88 is really pushing it lol

No, that’s Vincent.

Guest Analysis for Squall Leonhart vs Hat Kid

This match is an obvious blow-out so I'll take the chance to talk about A Hat in Time.

A Hat in Time is a 3D platform game released in 2017. If you like the Banjo-Kazooie series, this is a great game to check out. But, unlike that Yooka-Laylee game, which tried to copy BK in every way, this one is its own thing. A Hat in Time takes elements from many different 3D platformers: the chapter system from the Mario games, as well as wall jumps and dive jumps from them, the double jump from series like Yoshi and Kirby, new moves as you progress like in Banjo, the homing attack from Sonic Adventure, hookshot from Zelda...

The result is really fun platformer. It has really fluid controls that make it just fun to roam aimlessly around the map, doing quadruple jumps while looking for collectables. The levels are also written in a creative way, with each level having a completely different format depending on the story. The first level has a linear plot, the second one splits in two branches, the third one has a contract that you must fill up, and the fourth features free roaming.

As for Hat Kid, she is the newest entry in a long line of charming platformer mascots, something that has been largely missing from video-games in this century. And... did you say Young Link? I can work that out.

https://imgur.com/XjrK2rm

So... the match. Yeah, Squall crushes here. That said, A Hat in Time is a critically acclaimed indie so I don't expect her to flop like Cayde-6, it should be something closer to Cuphead. And Cuphead got 28% on Dante. But Squall is a near-elite.

I'll be a proper fanboy and take the low pick, though.

But please, play A Hat in Time.

Squall 75%
Hat Kid 25%

Logience posted...

spooky96 posted...

Squall is not only he's the strongest FF character but he's actually the strongest character outside the N9, but 88.88 is really pushing it lol

No, that’s Vincent.

Hahahahahaha no, Vincent would lose to things like MMX and Pikachu.

spooky96 posted...

Squall is not only he's the strongest FF character but he's actually the strongest character outside the N9, but 88.88 is really pushing it lol

shoot for the moon because even if you miss you're still among the stars in perfect position to catch a girl as she floats through space and conveniently find a dragon spaceship

transience posted...

wow we're all pretty low here. I thought people would be up near 60.

Well, I think we're all of the same mind about a Mass Effect regression. I'm still kind of surprised I ended up with the high prediction though.

AGH I FORGOT TO DO THE HAT KID WRITEUP

gimme a minute I’ll fix this